Child Sexual Play, or Child-on-Child Sexual Abuse?
Dr. Sheri Jacobson
March 6, 2023
by Andrea M. Darcy
Haunted by memories of a sexual incident when you were a kid? But tell yourself you are overreacting, as it was with another child? Yes, child sexual play can be normal. But it can also veer into assault or child-on-child sexual abuse.
What is normal child sexual behaviour?
Children are curious about their bodies from toddlers. It’s entirely normal for young children to explore themselves with touching, rubbing, and pulling, particularly between the ages of two to six.
Until young children are taught that masturbation is to be done in private, that they should respect other people’s body privacy, and that they should not touch other people’s private parts, other normal behaviours can include:
- showing their genitals to other children
- trying to see adults or other children naked
- looking at or touching a sibling or friend’s genitals.
From there, child sexual behaviours can become less child sexual play and more a cause for concern, as seen in the chart below put out by the American Academy of Pediatrics:
As the chart shows, body exploration becomes a worry if a child:
- is mimicking adult sexual acts
- won’t stop their sexual behaviours
- is upsetting others.
Further than that, and it can become child-on-child sexual abuse.
Child-on-child sexual abuse (COCSA)
Child-on-child sexual abuse (COCSA) means that a child or adolescent involves a prepubescent child in a sexual act that:
- is deliberate
- is non consensual
- or is consensual, but the child doesn’t know the nature of what is happening
- is not equal, either mentally, physically, or in age
- involves coercion either mentally, physically, or both.
On their website, the NHS here in the UK clearly admit that “around a third of child sexual abuse is carried out by other, usually older, children or young people.”
And yet the Office for National Statistics, in their 2019 report on child sexual abuse in England and Wales, don’t even mention it.
By: Bill Bradford
This shows how sadly underreported and discussed child-on-child sexual abuse is. Adults can brush off a child’s report of such abuse as ‘kids being kids’, or not report it for fear of what would happen to the children involved.
Is or isn’t my memory an abuse memory?
It depends on what happened.
- Was it a close friend or sibling? Someone you often explored life and play with?
- Were you similar in size, age, and knowledge?
- Were you exploring bodies and things got out of hand? Was it things like dirty jokes, looking at private parts, or humping?
- Were you both unsure of what you were doing but were gathering information?
- Was it a one off? Just a few times? Or stopped when you said no?
- Did you mostly just feel worried you’d get into trouble?
It was likely normalised sexual behaviour over abuse.
On the other hand:
- Was it a child you didn’t know too well or often play with?
- Or were they older and bigger than you, or at a higher developmental level?
- Did they seem to know a lot of things you didn’t? Do things no other kids you knew did? And seemed sure of what they were doing?
- Were things done without asking, or did the other child keep going when you said stop?
- Did it cause you pain or discomfort?
- Afterwards did you feel sad, guilty, ashamed, or afraid?
- Did it happen several times, or did they keep trying to get you to do things?
- Did they tell you they would do bad things if you told? Or otherwise blackmail you to do things again or not tell?
- Did the other child or adolescent seem angry either before, during, or after?
It’s likely you suffered child-on-child sexual abuse.
Symptoms of child on child sexual abuse
Child on child sexual abuse can leave you with the same symptoms as if you suffered abuse by an adult. This can include:
- anxiety and depression
- constant illness
- deep feelings of shame and guilt
- emotional dysregulation
- foggy thinking
- identity issues
- low self-esteem
- promiscuity
- difficult relationships
- trust issues
- restlessness
- suicidal thinking
- complex PTSD.
[For more about symptoms of sexual abuse, see our article on “How to Tell You Were Abused as a Child’.]
Abuse that follows abuse
Note that children who were abused by children can then go on to be abused again by an adult, or to experience assault or abuse when an adolescent or adult themselves. This can mean the memory of the child-on-child abuse is overlooked or brushed aside.
A review identifying rates and effects of sexual re-victimisation among people who experienced child sexual abuse showed that if you were abused as a kid, you have up to three times a greater risk of being revictimised when older.
Why do children abuse children?
It is a learned behaviour. They are generally (but not all) children who have lived through neglect and abuse themselves, either abuse by an adult or another child or adolescent. This might be non-contact abuse, such as being forced to look at porn or watch adults having sex.
In some cases, they will have ‘normalised’ the abuse they have lived through and not realise what they are doing to another child is wrong. And they don’t realise that it’s harming them as much as the other child.
It’s also true that children who abuse other children need help as much as the children they hurt.
This is not to say that as an adult who realises they experienced child on child sexual abuse, you should brush it off as ‘he or she didn’t know what they were doing’. If it was an upsetting experience for you, it is important to take it seriously.
It is also not to say that all children who are abused go on to abuse other children, or even to say that the majority do.
Dealing with memories of child on child sexual abuse
It can be very confusing to have memories of child on child sexual abuse, particularly if it was a sibling.
An exploratory study talking to over forty survivors of sibling incest found that survivors often convinced themselves it was consensual, or even changed the story to make themselves the instigator.
If you believe you were abused by another child, it doesn’t matter if your memories are confusing or uncertain. It’s advisable to take the same steps as navigating any other kind of sexual abuse (see our article ‘What to Do Now if you Think You Were Abused‘).
Can therapy help me?
If there was one thing seeking support is fairly essential for, it’s navigating child sexual abuse, regardless if the perpetrator was a child, adolescent, or adult. Abuse hits us at the core of who we are. Trying to untangle it can release deep feelings of shame, anxiety, and fear.
And talking about it to the wrong person can leave us feeling traumatised all over again, if we perceive their response to be a judgement or rejection. Or, worse, a denial of our experience.
It’s important to find support from someone who understands. This could mean first sharing with a trusted friend who always believes in you. But it’s advisable to then seek a support group, or the support of a counsellor or psychotherapist who can create a safe space for you to process your experiences and emotions.
Need help processing child sexual abuse? We connect you with top London therapists for abuse survivors at our central offices or online. Or use our online booking platform to source affordable UK-wide registered therapists and online counselling now.
If you are having thoughts about children that are concerning you, please contact the charity Stop it Now! who are experts in this domain and have a free helpline.
Andrea M. Darcy is a health and wellbeing writer as well as mentor who often writes about trauma, relationships, and ADHD. Find her on Instagram @am_darcy
Child play and physical exploration is natural. Children experiment with each others bodies cooperatively. I just feel a lot of people are in denial this happens naturally. Maybe because child abusers use this behaviour as a justification for their crimes and that children should not have sexual curiosities. But they do and its innocent. I`m not referring to toddlers as such because at that age they don’t really have a complete understanding of sexuality, its not conscious actions.
Every instance of sexual encounter when I was a child it was initiated by females a year or two older. I was about 9 or 10 which I consider being a child. I am male and one would expect it more likely to happen naturally from the opposite sex. I recognise in adult life it was child sex play. Well, its not really sex. Its experimentation, exploration play. I never felt intimidated or coerced although it was introduced to me, rather than having the inclination myself. I didn’t really get much excitement from it but it wasn’t a negative experience. Before that age I had no interest in girls or sex, it sort of just happened. Girls chased boys, wanted to kiss the boys! I just liked the attention and kisses. Then they wanted to come around for tea and get you alone to play doctors and nurses. But in a loving family, parents cuddle, they kiss, its natural. Mine did. So I guess the girls just copy mummy and I imagine maybe are coming into puberty too. Some girls seemed more advanced than others though. I don’t have any guilt or shame because I didn’t feel the need to resist it. I`m not wanting hurt people sexually or force anyone as an adult to do unnatural things and see it as natural aspect of growing up.
I believe people develop at different stages during puberty, get sexual urges naturally and I don`t think its uncommon where 12 year old girls or boys have an early puberty and are capable of wanting sex. My ex girlfriend (57) says she had menstruation at 10 and puberty at 11. Obviously, laws are in place to prevent the complications of this. However, its the hormones which dictate actions, not the law. Many who are young adolescents actually discover sex naturally, enjoy it and continue, whatever their age or risks. In my experiences, females are just as eager to have sexual encounters as males, even as young girls it seems.
Above the age of say 9, I believe a child has cognative ability to reconise right from wrong but they might not report it. Obviously people with learning difficulties it may be much older into adulthood. I`d certainly say from my experiences as a child that below the ages of 9 then any mimicking of sexual acts or verbal sexuality then there is probably some external influence. You’re not particularly aware of sex below that age. It may not particularly mean any sinister goings on. Maybe there are older siblings around and picked up from them, accidentally witnessed parents having sex or access to the internet unsupervised. Print was very much the media when I was young and old enough to show an interest, we often found porn magazines dumped in woodlands and read them but now it is instant access online. Of course it could also mean abuse from another child or adult.
Hi there Keke, as you’ll see in the article, we agree that child exploration is normal, it just depends on what it is and how it happens, the article makes the important boundaries clear. The one thing we’d challenge here is any implication a 9 year-old should ‘know’ if something is right or wrong and therefore choose to stop it or report. Some children are bought up without any healthy talk about their bodies, are forced via religion to think of their body as ‘bad’, and can have no idea they have a right to set boundaries. Or feel so much shame after they blame themselves. And then there is coercion and manipulation. Anyone coercing any child or even any adult for that matter into sexual activity with manipulation is out of line and in the case of children are breaking the law. Many children and again adults don’t know how to recognise or navigate manipulation. Best, HT.
sex play as a child with same gender?
I was a perpetrator of child on child abuse. I am a female in my twenties, and when I was a child I coerced my sister to perform sexual acts on me, twice. I was around six, she was four. It has destroyed me with guilt since I was a child, I don’t know how to tell my therapist about this, she already suspects I could have been a victim of child abuse. I’m deeply ashamed, at the time I knew it was wrong. I don’t know what made me do it. I suffer from depression and anxiety, and right now I don’t have any memories of being abused. The only thing I remember is what I did to her. I’m mortified, I feel helpless and terribly scared of confronting this situation. I don’t know what to do…
Ella, this sounds like a huge burden to bear for you. But we want to assure you that you are in no way a terrible person because this happened. As the article mentions, children are naturally curious about their bodies. It’s not ‘bad’ for children to explore their body or be curious about other children’s bodies. And children are not thinking, “I am going to do sexual things for my own pleasure and hurt this other child”. They are either acting from an innocent curiosity, or they are mimicking what they have been taught by adults. You say ‘sexual acts’. If that was what it was, you would have learned it from somewhere. If a young child has been shown sexual things either by an adult sexually abusing them, or by an adult allowing a child access to such things when a child should be protected from such imagery, this is the fault of the adult, not the child. A child can then try to pass on their confusion and upset about such an experience by re-enacting it with another child. Any therapist worth their certification would not at all judge you over this experience. What’s happening here is that you are transposing your own judgement onto your therapist, assuming they will have such a negative perspective as you do. Note that many of us have had some sort of experience like this as a child. It’s far from uncommon. You are not alone with this, you are not some strange monster, you are a person with difficult past experiences that upset her. It’s a great idea to share this with your therapist when you feel ready. Your therapist could discuss with you if it’s helpful or not to discuss this with your sister, as we don’t know your relationship so really can’t give any advice on this. So in summary, we don’t see anything to be ashamed about here, we instead see a lot to have empathy for, particularly as you clearly had nobody to talk about this kind of thing with as a child, meaning no adult you trusted. Best, HT.
Today im 18 years old but The curiosity started when i think I was 3 or 4 but around like 6 or 7 maybe 8 my step brother which who was the same age and same sex as me at the times engaged in sexual activities once i got a little older and knowledgeable I stopped it from happening but It I feel guilty about what happend and sometimes it makes me confused about my sexuality even though i know im straight I just question my self why would I do something like that.
Hi Bill, as the article discusses, children are naturally curious about their bodies, and often engage in body play with children their own age. But if this went on for a long time and is something you feel bad about, then it might be something worth exploring with a counsellor. So we’d suggest you seek support over this as it seems like it’s really upsetting you. If you are on a low budget, we have an article on how to seek free to low cost counselling here http://bit.ly/lowcosttherapy. Best, HT.
is it possible that a child who was sexually abused by an adult outside of the family can create memories of the abuse but change the perpetrator to a parental figure they aren’t close with? is there a psychological term or reason for this?
Hi Cate, it is of course possible. It depends on the child and the situation. There is no exact term for it. We’d suggest you get the child in question the proper support they need and take it from there, and see what a mental health professional has to say. The worry should be the wellbeing of the child, not whether they have changed the story. Best, HT.
I’m 30 and have been struggling with a memory from way over 20 years ago. I can’t remember my age but I was definitely in primary school. I can’t remember how it started but a cousin of mine (same sex) was touching my parts and I knew it was the wrong place so I directed her to the right bit, I feel so ashamed and disgusted at myself, I don’t know if I forced her. I also used to get pleasure from dry humping random objects and sometimes family friends who were older. It makes me feel sick!
Hi Rose, it’s very normal for children to be curious about their bodies and do things like dry humping of objects or masturbating, or to engage in body play. A child is innocent and curious. The article explains the difference between normal child sexual play and abuse. What isn’t normal is your heavy shame about sex and your body. You mention ‘family friends who were older’ and we don’t know how much older that means and if you are implying there was some sort of inappropriate behaviour from the adults around you. If you did have other experiences that made you feel so ashamed or were abusive, or if there is more to this story, all of this would be worth exploring with a therapist in the safe and confidential space of a therapy room. Shame really kills our self esteem and holds us back in life so it’s always worth reaching out for support to work through it. Best, HT.
I think i was a perpetrator of child on child abuse and i am confused whether that was a normal behaviour or a child on child abuse , i just have glimpse of memories that is it ok for a 12 year old boy to hold thigh of a 9 year old girl during a so called statue statue game , and after being grown up its feel so bad , guilty from inside ,
Idk what to say i am just questioning my self again and again how can i do so , and whether it was a child on child abuse or not , provided that both the children knows each other at that time , and it happens for about 4 to 5 times ( idk )
But now as a person its just horrifying me again and again that how can i do so
Hi Alex, would you consider going to talk to a counsellor about this? As it sounds like it’s causing you severe anxiety, and these sorts of things are complex, you deserve more than a brief response over a comment box. Children are curious about bodies, and they also learn from the adults around them and mimic what they see or what happened to them. If you were 3 years apart in age and it was not aggressive it would probably be seen as child sexual play over assault, but if you feel you upset her than we can imagine it’s very upsetting for you, yes. A therapist could help you work through these feelings and decide on a way forward, on how you would like to handle this. And help you navigate, process, and heal any other circumstances that led to you acting out as a child. We wish you courage! Best, HT.
Im 21 years old and have felt forever guilty over something that happened ten years ago and don’t know what to make of it. It eats away at my inside and whenever I feel good in life it always seems to cross my mind and makes me feel like i am the worst person. When I was 9 years old and my sister was 4 I explored her private parts on a few occasions which included rubbing and did it once to my little brother aswell. Being older now, I can’t seem to get on with my life as I am unable to forgive myself for it. Being a Christian I confessed it to a priest a few years ago which only temporarily made me feel a bit better about the whole thing and in recent times the scenario seems to run through my head more and more and really deteriorates my mental well-being on a daily basis.
Hi John, this is a sensitive situation, and not something a stranger should tell you how to handle over a comment. The right way to handle this is really what works for you, there is no exact answer. We’d highly, highly recommend you work with a non denominational and professional counsellor on this who can offer an unbiased, safe space to explore this overwhelming sense of guilt. It’s not about ‘confessing’, it’s about working through the deeper stories and maybe learning this is part of a bigger picture of a difficult childhood that needs a commitment to a healing journey. For example, you don’t mention simply talking this through with your siblings now you are all adults, so are we right to assume perhaps those relationships aren’t strong and open? In summary, children are very curious about bodies and do explore. But sometimes they learn certain behaviours from adults, or see things adults do that they then mimic, and there can also be trauma in how they learned those behaviours. Or they are upset about other things, so hurt other children. But all those other hurts and upsets that caused the acting out are important and are also part of the story, even if the brain over focuses on one thing. So it all needs to be dealt with sensitively, holistically, and in a way that you can handle, that doesn’t make you feel worse but helps you build compassion for that child you were. Please do reach out for support on this. An experienced trained therapist will not at all judge but will want to help. Best, HT.
I am 18 year old , and i am struggling with my own memories from last 2 months and i am confused that whether it was normal or an evil inside me , I remember few instances from past where i was like 13 or 14 , i was in marriage event and it was all crowded and every one were enjoying all there dancing and me being with my cousins and some women ,i remember it was intentional that i touch loin of one the woman there , which I now thought it to be inappropriate behaviour and touch by me and which is harming me with the guilt how can i do so , and also one more instance that i was in a car with my cousins and i probably intentionally made an inappropriate touch to my elder sister which looks like to done by mistake but it was only me who knows it is intentional during the same phase of my life and now after being grown up it is hurting me every moment how can i do so
Hi Joseph, so consent really matters. Read our article on it https://harleytherapy.com/blog/posts/sexual-consent-and-mental-health. But the fact you feel guilty is actually a good thing. Guilt is there to help us see where we need to do some work on ourselves and shows we have a healthy conscience. So what we’d say here is that we all make mistakes in life. Each and every one of us. It doesn’t make us ‘evil’. It makes us someone who made a mistake. What matters is what we do next. Take time to work with a counsellor if you can, on where these urges to touch others without their consent come from, there will be something at the root, perhaps low self esteem, or anger, or even if something happened to you growing up where you feel you didn’t have choice, we don’t know. But what matters is to work on the root, the repressed emotions and experiences, and find healthier outlets for your emotions and healthier ways to behave around others. A trained, registered talk therapist will not judge you at all, they will want to help. Best, HT.
When I was 8 years old, once in a sleepover I coerced my cousin to put his hand on my thigh. I did it just out of curiosity, I didnt had any idea about inappropriate touch.We were of the same age. After all those years he doesn’t even seem to remember it, but now that I understand things I feel extremely guilty and ashamed of myself. What should I do ?
Hi Tessa, if it’s really upsetting you it would be a good idea to find a counsellor to talk to about it. You might find that it’s part of a bigger picture, or what you are upset about is something else entirely. The brain can pick one upset and overfocus on it as a way to avoid dealing with other upsets that may be related but might be entirely different but from around that same age or time of life. For example, if your parents divorced, you might not ever think about that but only focus on this incident. At the very least a counsellor could help you look at why you have guilt and shame around your body and if you also have sexual guilt as an adult. Finally, and we are sure you know this, as the article talks about it, children are curious about bodies and there is nothing unusual or shameful about what you just described. Best, HT.
Please read my comment, I am so lost and suicidal.
For all these years I’ve been oblivious to what might’ve been a sexual abuse performed by me. I was just 11 and she was 6. We used to spend all the time together, and one time I recall a memory where my sister rubbed me there until I orgasmed and that was the first time I did and didn’t even know something like that could happen. Then I thought she’d want to experience it too so I started to rub her back but she stopped me so I stopped. I knew what we did was bad so I told her that she shouldn’t tell what we did to anyone. In the upcoming years there were about 3 more times where we’d spontaneously start messing with each other like rolling on the bed and maybe some humping. After that nothing occurred again. 10 years later I wondered if I might have done something that wasn’t just ‘exploration’ as I always thought it was.
Me and my sister get along very well and we both love each other and I know she trusts me deeply even when it comes to like zipping her skirt or her bra or giving her a massage when she’s almost naked. She also trusts me with all her sexual experiences in her life. I’m afraid that she could’ve been bisexual because of me and sometimes I do feel like she’s got big sexual drive and again… I feel like it’s my fault.
On the strange side, I at 25 have never been kissed and I’m still a virgin. I don’t feel comfortable about sex at all.
But that’s beside the point. The bottom line is I am guilty. And this guilt is eating me from the inside. I feel like I don’t really deserve to be here in this world… I am suicidal. I just wish nothing of that ever happened. I just wish that my sister isn’t damaged because of it. I just want to fall asleep and wake up back in time to fix it all up.
I really need an answer to the following question… Was what I did sexual abuse?
Thank you.
Hi Enya, we can’t answer that question, we’re afraid. We simply legally can’t answer that kind of question for someone over comments, we do hope you understand, it’s nothing personal but we aren’t allow to answer anything that is related to legal definitions or give any diagnosis over comments. What we can say is give the article a very thorough read it explains in details the fine lines here. The things we do know is that children and siblings often engage in body play. What we don’t understand is why you don’t talk to your sister about this. You say you are very close, what’s stopping you from just having an honest conversation about this? Yes, it will be a difficult conversation to have, yes, there might be a lot of tears, but isn’t that better than years of torturing yourself or even hurting yourself? For all you know she might not even be bothered at all by any of this, or your memory has made it far worse than it was. We’d also highly, HIGHLY advise you seek counselling over this. Best really to seek counselling before you talk to your sister if it’s something you fear, as a counsellor can help you calm your emotions and decide what you want to say, to approach it all from a calmer place. Counselling would do wonders to relieve this high anxiety and guilt. Often when our mind is obsessed with one memory it’s a way to avoid thinking about other difficult experiences. It’s possible your mind is making a big deal of this as a way to cope, but that therapy could help you put this all into perspective and deal with all the other things that are actually upsetting you, too. It’s not okay to feel this lonely and trapped by a memory, it’s not okay to be suicidal, it’s really important you get some help. If you are in the UK, here is our list of free helplines (and if you aren’t in the UK you can google for ones in your area) http://bit.ly/mentalhelplines Best, HT.
I am a perpetrator of child on child abuse as one day when I was 9 and my sister was 4 I touched her private parts. Now that I look back onto it I didn’t mean to do it. I keep on thinking about the scenario again and again in my head telling my younger self why did you do this. It gets me stressed out and annoyed at myself.
Hi Daniel, if you have a good read of the article we think you’ll find that it suggests this is more child body play. But it it’s upsetting you, that’s worth taking seriously. Why not go speak to a counsellor about this? Sometimes one memory, if it’s causing us great stress, can be part of a bigger picture, there might be other experiences that were upsetting for you, and counselling is a non judgmental space to explore these things. Best, HT.
Hello Harley therapy
Firstly I am thankful to you for doing such a great job over so sensitive topic.
My concern is similar and is eating myself for nearly a month, At the age of 9, I was upstairs when I was exploring my private part suddenly my sister also came upstairs (7 years age at that time) then I approached her (unintentionally) and with her consent I touched her with my private part at her left hip just for 6-7 seconds and I also have blurry image that I exchanged words with her like ‘feels good?’, then we stopped and we never ever did it and I never ever even thought of it, for me we grew up as real lovely siblings and I see brother sister relationship as extremely pure thing, your sister is real strength for you, but suddenly I got into this thought now and is eating me, I always feel sinful and sorry about it, that single incident 14 years back is for 7-8 seconds is going heavy on me.
Hi Sachin, have a good read of the article, and of the other comments, what you’ll find is that here in the UK this would count as child on child sexual play which is a common occurrence that happens between many siblings, general body curiosity in children is common. What we always encourage people who are anxious about such a memory to do is talk to a therapist, who can create a safe and non judgmental space to properly explore the memory. Often if our brain is suddenly obsessing on one memory it can be that there are other things upsetting us just beneath the surface, either connected or not. And therapy can help you to let go of all these repressed emotions and memories that will be affecting your life in little ways. You can get to the root of the issue and gain a new perspective. Best, HT.
Hi there, I have the same concerns and it’s really eating me up as I really feel like I don’t deserve to live because of the action I caused. I am a female below 20 (a minor) and just this past months I remembered a memory of me when I was 9 or 10 years old, I touched my younger brother who was 3 or 4 and I let him touch me also, which at that time I didn’t know it was wrong because I was not educated well at a young age. After that I never did it again. I feel really ashamed and guilty for what I did and all I want is to assure my brother’s well-being. I really feel regret and shame for myself. I want to talk about it, really, but I feel like I don’t even deserve to talk to someone professional because of the horrible act that I did. I feel disgusted about myself and I don’t know how to handle my emotions anymore, it’s taking my whole mind over and over again. I also can somehow remember why I thought the act I did when I was younger was right which is definetely wrong that I realized when I grew older. I really want to have an honest conversation, but I feel it will make things worse if I don’t sort out my mind first. I always took care of him like how a sibling should but that one memory of mine makes me annoyed at myself and which causes me to not forgive myself.
Hi Mal, if you read through the article fully and also the other comments, we think you’ll find the answer you are looking for. When one memory becomes obsessive like this it’s often as there are other stresses and anxieties, sometimes not even related to the situation we are obsessing about, and it’s really important to seek support and speak to a counsellor, or trusted person, particularly as you seem to carry a lot of shame. You can’t ‘sort your mind out first’, that’s unrealistic, anxiety is a very strong condition that is not something we can just choose to stop, the mind gets trapped in very strong and addictive patterns of fear, we often need help to manage it. A counsellor won’t judge you, they are used to hearing things like this. Best, HT.
I just stumbled upon this and it feels like the right thing to share some of the weight holding me… When I was from ages 6-10 I can remember perfomring sexula acts on my friends and some of them were younger. I remember feeling super sexual as a kid which was apparent to me, so I thought it was normal. I also remember my older sister touching me and older cousin touching me on my back side when I was younger as well. I feel like I also fit some of the side-effects of being abused as a child, having difficult relationships, low self esteem, guilt/shame. I am going to be opening up to my new therapist about this at my next appointment, and I just hope it will help me understand how to keep moving forward in a healthy way. Thank you so much for all your help.
So glad to hear that it was helpful, and that you are going to be sharing with your therapist, that’s a huge step forward! All the best, HT.
I played bf and gf with my younger cousin. Both girls and there was a 5 or 6 yr she gap. We would kiss while playing cause that’s what we saw as part of a relationship. But I recall kissing her inner thigh. Possibly her genitals. It’s really eating me up but I can’t even remember if I did that or how old I was. I’m worried I was on the older side around 12yrs old. I’ve always been a very sexual person and was very interested in body’s and sex as a kid and so did my cousin. Is this in bounds of child play?
Hi there Perry, the definitions vary according to whether it was consensual or not, for example. As you were at a different period of development it might be seen as child on child sexual abuse but again it depends on several details so we really can’t say. But what we think is important here is not to spiral out of control over the past which you can’t control and which you do not know the exact facts of, but to get support and help for the present, where facts are clear. These facts are that you are upset about this, that it’s causing you anxiety. Your mind is assuming the worst without real facts. We’d suspect this is part of a bigger picture even, when we are haunted by one exact childhood event it is often our brain trying to block out a wider pattern of childhood trauma. So what we would highly suggest is seeking the support of a professional counsellor or psychotherapist who could create a safe, confidential space for you to discuss this as well as any current stressors or other difficult childhood experiences. We wish you courage! Best, HT.
Erica
I was 5 yrs old when I had sex play with my cousin sister ..we did rubbing our private parts .. and mimic other sexual activities which I saw on TV when we bought some DVD from our uncle house ..
Now I’m very nervous about this that is means I’m bad person
My main question is that ..this which I did in childhood count as real sex??
Does that means I lost my virginity???
Plz answer I’m dealing with this guilt from past 6 months ..I don’t know what to do ..I feel like im cheating on my bf ? By saying I’m virgin 😭
Hi Liya, the information you are giving is unclear. From what we think you are saying, your sex is female and you played with your cousin who also has the sex of female? And you were five years old? And your cousin we would guess was close to your age? Please do read the article entirely and carefully we think you will find the answers you require in the article. It explains how a lot of children engage in body play. That this is quite normal. That if the children are of the same age and both agree to it and it’s just curiosity over violence, it is childhood curiosity and body play. It is not ‘bad’ or ‘shameful’. If you are referring to the heteronormative, traditional idea of ‘virginity’, and you were both of the female sex, then no matter what happened you’d technically still be a ‘virgin’. In any case any kind of childhood experience or trauma does not mean you are cheating on anyone. It’s nothing to do with your adult sex life and if anyone tried to make you feel bad about difficult childhood experiences then they would not be someone to be dating in the first place in our opinion. If you feel strange and guilty about this experience, though, then it’s important to talk about it with someone, is there any way you could access a counsellor? A professional who could help you understand if this experience is part of something bigger, or why you feel so bad about it? Best, HT.
It’s Liya
We both are female sex and same age …around 5to 6 years old We both are heterosexual
Virginity now becomes so typical ..I don’t even knew that means till age of 18 .. When I get flashback of my childhood sexual experiment .. it’s felt so bad to me.. why I did that… Then I’ve read if you have sexual experience then you lost you Virginity..which make me freak out ..
. So my question on my Virginity become very confusing and regretful .. I want to know that childhood sex play make you lose virginity? Or not? ..
Again Liya, do actually read the article, the answers are all in there. About how child body play is normal, and not something to be ashamed about, if children are the same age and it’s simply driven by curiosity. At this point we are going to assume you are writing from a Muslim country where sex is not talked about much and unfortunately the outdated idea that you need to be a virgin to have value is still perpetuated? And women are still shamed for thinking or talking about sex or even harmed? It’s a sad state of affairs and we do understand that not everyone is lucky enough to live in a Western country with advanced and kinder viewpoints towards women. So the answer is no, two very young girls playing with their bodies has nothing at all to do with losing your virginity. Best, HT.
Hello,
I’m only 17 right now, but I’ve been thinking back on things I did with a friend of mine a lot. At the time I was 9/10 and she was 12. I had an idea of what sex was, but mostly hetero sex, not lesbian sex. (At the time I identified as female, and I was born in a female body, I currently identify as male though) She knew a lot more than me, and I’m pretty sure she was a lot more aware of what we were doing. It was mostly kissing, humping, etc. But there were times we were fully naked. I enjoyed it, but never intended first. Afterwards I would always have the worst feeling in the world, and I still feel that way about it thinking back now. I’m not very sure if you could say this was actual abuse, since I never said no. But I’ve always had a wrong feeling about it, and have struggled with it a lot.
I know this might seem like playing around but the longer it went on the realer it felt, and the worse it got. In the end I was the one to stop it, although it did take me a long time convincing her.
Max
Hey Max! Sounds tough. When things are bothering us, then we have to accept that for us, it wasn’t a good experience. It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks and says, what a definition is or isn’t. As our life is our experience, and we are the one living with the fallout and symptoms of how our brain personally chose to process an experience. If we keep trying to tell ourselves it ‘wasn’t that bad, wasn’t that big of a deal’ then all our our guilt, shame, sadness, and anger gets stuck inside, and we can end up depressed and anxious. So if for you it felt traumatic and made you feel bad, then take that seriously and find some support to talk it through. 12 is also preteen, when 9/10 might not have been, so although it’s a close age range there is that difference, and from what you are saying you felt quite coerced and powerless, even if you didn’t at first say no. And it’s okay to feel that way. Also, when one memory is really driving us crazy, it’s sometimes as our mind is upset about other experiences too, either recent ones or also from the past, and ‘hiding’ from those things by focusing all it’s energy on one memory. So good to seek support. Do you have someone you totally trust to talk to about this? A trusted adult? Or are you already seeing a counsellor? If not, would you be able to talk to your parents and ask if they could help you find one? You don’t have to explain everything to them, you just need to make it clear you need some confidential support, we have an article here on how to approach mental health with your parents http://bit.ly/talktoparents. Otherwise, if you ever feel really upset or low don’t be afraid to call a free helpline, there are several out there for young people, google for one in your home country, they are totally confidential and they can be really supportive and useful. We wish your courage. Best, HT.
I’m very sad to say I think I may be a perpetrators of child on child sexual abuse when I was 12-13ish I had a friend who’s sister had a mad crush on me she was 8-9 there were several times that things had gone on, I initiated a lot of, I always made sure she was comfortable and that I didn’t do anything without permission, however I still feel awful because I had to concept of the age gap, this went on for about a year where we would make out and dry hump and touch each other and I believe I even put my finger in her, she was okay with it and it was out of pure curiosity but I feel awful, I don’t talk to my friends anymore bc I unfortunately we had just parted ways but I feel so upset and mad at myself for thinking those things were okay to do. I’m not sure what to do but the guilt and regret have truly been terrible, I’m only 18 now and I’ve grown and become a great young man and I want to help others and be a good person, but I feel weighed down heavily by my past mistakes and the possibility that I could’ve messed someone up in the head. Any advice?
Joe, this sounds tough. It’s obviously deeply affecting your ability to feel good about yourself. The best would be if you could find a good counsellor you could grow to trust and share this with. Not a ‘christian’ counsellor as we feel they bring far too much judgement into play, so an impartial counsellor who is not in any way related to anyone you know, or affiliated to any religion. If you happen to be at college, they often offer a referral service to off-campus counsellors, for example. And work through these memories and this upset in a safe way so you can start to thrive despite this. Of course you are only 18 and if you aren’t at college, don’t have the budget, or don’t feel comfortable asking your parents to help you seek some counselling, that might be tough. Don’t overlook calling a free, confidential hotline for young people if you ever truly feel overwhelmed. In life we all do shitty things at some point or another. It’s part of the human experience. We mess up. We hurt others, we get hurt by others. But you were a kid yourself, and this kind of behaviour would not come out of nowhere but from things you yourself had gone through or learned (hence counselling would be a good idea as this might end up a more complex situation). But what matters is that you’re learning, you are experiencing guilt (a healthy response) and you are doing your best to contribute to the world. Best, HT.
Hi,
I recalled this memory two years ago first and it’s actually been eating my mind up since . Sometimes I’ve gone months at a time forgetting about it but then sometimes it comes back and the cycle starts again with the obsessive thinking about it , guilt shame and anxiety.
I remember that when I was 10 , I was sort of playing doctor with my younger brother age 6 or 7 and i was lying on my stomach and i remember telling him to massage my stomach from the back so he like reached his hand out underneath hand was then touching my genitals . This was the same year we moved house by the way. It was a one off thing and never happened ever again – I think I realised it was wrong. From what I remember he was just laughing and didnt go and tell my mum ? I really wish it never happened
I actually asked him last year if I ever made him touch me inappropriately and he said no ? But i literally remember this . I go through phases where I’m like this happened and then not even and hour later my mind is like no way that didn’t happen.
The amount of guilt and anxiety I have over this is definitely not healthy . Was this normal child sexual exploration ? I can’t stop obsessive thinking over this thinking I did something extremely bad .
Hi
dealing with a. lot of the things in this thread
Hi Ava, give the article a good read. It explains how this would come under child sexual play, a normal thing particularly between siblings. What we find confusing about what you are saying is that from what you are describing your younger brother accidentally touched your genitals but you feel like you did something bad. Do you have a lot of body shame? Did you grow up in a strict Christian household that has given you unhealthy thinking around sex and your body? Are there other forms of trauma you have experienced or things that are upsetting you and your mind is obsessing on this to avoid facing those? In summary, what is interesting to us is not this actual experience necessarily but that you have obsessive thinking and anxiety, and those don’t come out of nowhere. We don’t know what age you are, but if you are old enough to seek counselling, we think it would be highly beneficial for you. Best, HT.
Hi Harami, we hope the feedback in the thread is helpful. Best, HT.
This happened when I was about six or five years old with my younger brother who was four or five years old at the time. Based on what I remember, I
Think I told him to come into my room naked or he just came into my room naked while I was naked and he knelt down and I went on top of this back and maybe rubbed my thing around on his back because it felt soothing I think? I doubt so never been exposed to any sort of sexual content because we didn’t have phones or tablets anyways the thing is that I feel really guilty and upset because I didn’t know what on earth I was doing thenI feel so guilty and ashamed, I read the article but I just want hear a response, after he went back to his room. This was a one time occurrence and didn’t continue after we’d been corrected by our careers/parents. Pretty sure before that I rubbed my body on objects and once in his body, he saw it as funny and so did i, I thought of it as shooting and funny I just hope what I did was curiously/ exploratory we didn’t have any sort of sexual intentions we were way too young for that.
If you knew everything you knew now, would u have done it if you went back to the time that you did it? If no, then you are a good person that learns from his mistakes and past events. Plus you can’t blame yourself for doing something you didn’t know was seriously wrong. My experience is a combination of Al these comments and I’m currently seeking help with my psychologist about it and it’s helped a lot. I’ve ruminated less and it’s overall better but I am still struggling. Y’all should do that too. Else then accepting yourself, I feel like it’s probably the only way to you guys problems.
When I was about 11 or 12 years old, I often fussed over the size of my breasts because they were uneven and around that time I wondered why women breastfed their babies. One day, while looking at my breasts and looking at the larger one, I invited a younger child to put their mouth on my breast (though without actually sucking on the nipple) as if I was breastfeeding them. At that point, I had already experimented with my body to know what sexual arousal felt like, but when I simulated breastfeeding with that child, I didn’t feel any sexual arousal. It only lasted for a few seconds, but it felt unpleasant to me and afterwards I felt like I did some embarrassing game. I never recalled that memory until years later, but when I did, I couldn’t help but feel displeased with myself. It was the only time something like that happened, but I feel ashamed.
I remember simulating breastfeeding as preteen (11-12) with a younger child of preschool age. While I didn’t do it for sexual reasons or feel sexual pleasure, I feel bad that this happened and even though it’s been years, I don’t know what to do…
Hello, I am 18 and im starting to think I experienced child on child abuse. This happened when I was around maybe 6-9, I can’t really remember my age. It happened with my cousin. I can’t also really remember how old he was maybe around 12-13. When I was younger, me and my cousin used to be pretty close. But then he got me into this some sort of not normal “game”. I can’t remember if he actually did call it a game, but what he used to do is we would go somewhere where we would be alone and he used to hump on me, we would just go on the ground and he would do it (don’t worry yes with clothes). But I still don’t think that is normal. Sometimes where I would not feel like doing it he would tell me he did it with a friend of ours (that we both knew), and how many times he humped her. I do now recall that when he would do it he would count each time outloud. I do also remember that even though I was young I did know that this motion or just how it looked like was similar to sexual performance, but since I was young i kind of thought if wasn’t anything bad and just some game. Just writing this and recalling the whole thing makes me sick, mad also just sad. Maybe it isn’t that bad and just something that children would do not knowing what they are actually doing but as I said I think he was around 12 or 13 and I’m pretty sure children at that age do know that doing that with someone that at an age like I was is not okay. I am not close to my cousin anymore and he is way older now, I am just curious if he does remember it and agrees that it isn’t okay. I just don’t know what to do..
Hi I have a dobut whether my memory was or wasn’t abuse. The situation happened with a girl 8 years younger than me, I was 12, it was a neighbour who I really never played with.
We were playing house, I don’t know wheter if I suggested it or her, we were pretending going to sleep I think she first gave me a peck on the lips, I’m pretty sure it was her that started it, bcs she was of another religion I tought that maybe in hers, her family gave her pecks before going to sleep, but I liked it so I told her to repeat the game some times, I think it was the same day, when she had enough, we didnt continue so I didnt force her to play more. I do remember feeling guily when I arrived home or that I was ashamed someone would know I did something strange. I’m affraid I sexually assoulted without knowing, or I took advantage. Is what I explained considered COCSA, and If so, what should I do about it. It was 10 years ago.
I’m late 20s and about two years ago a memory which I never really thought about came about (I was pregnant which maybe why it came about).
When I was around 14, I used to give my sister (around 1.5-2years) baths to help out at home.. on ONE occasion I was in the bath with her and was curious and asked her to wiggle her toes so I could feel what it was like to have some touch my cliterous (my friends were all saying how amazing it was as they were in relationships – I wasn’t, however I didn’t really understand it.. I didn’t become sexually active until I was 23.. I was a late bloomer in regards to wanting sexual activity). I asked her to wiggler her toes which literally lasted seconds and I felt nothing and that was it.
This memory is bothering me. I feel like I didnt something really bad but it wasn’t because I wanted to be touched.. more out of curiosity. Happened once. Seconds.
I don’t know how to move on from it
I am a victim of child on child sexual abuse. I am aroace, so I never had the sexual curiosity. But, I had a neighbor who was three to four years older than I was. I was about seven when he started grooming me and eight when he raped me.Years later, when I was ten he groomed me again. When I was eleven he attempted to assault me again. He told me that it was what I wanted so for years I lived in shame of myself. Because I was aroace, I never understood sex as anything but pain and a power game. But, now even though I know I was abused I still get scared people won’t believe me because he was a kid too. It didn’t help that at the time I was being bullied and the teachers didn’t care so I developed a deep rooted distrust in adults. So much so that I lost my therapist because I didn’t trust her. I’m scared of emotional intimacy, but I crave it. I want a councilor, but I don’t trust them. I feel at war with myself and don’t know how to ask for help.
I’m in my early twenties, and the incident which kind of faded from my mind came back. I was around 12-13 and my little sister was around 5 and due to some influence of bad friendship, I had gotten addicted to porn and stuffs back then. I got so curious, and I have a blurry memory of me touching her inappropriately and even kissing her. The poor child was unaware of what was happening and it happened 2-3 times and I stopped it myself because somehow god’s grace I realised it’s not right. Now it’s running in my mind and I just wish I could erase whatever happened. I hate myself for whatever I did because I didn’t have any intention to hurt her. I didn’t know anything about child abuse or consent or any such things. I really love my sister but when I think about what I did with her makes me hate myself like hell.
I’ve always been curious but over the years I’ve grown to feel like something happened to me. My first memory was being at a neighbours house (same sex, she was a year or 2 older), i was 5 and she would lay on top of me and dry hump me while making out.
I also went to my cousins house in the summer and i remember laying in bed with him and touching each other, he is a year older. I think I was around 7 or 8. As we both grew up, it got more aggressive, when I was 8, he sat on my chest and pushed his penis into my face.
I also remember being curious and kissing a boy when i was 7 at school. Around 9, i remember touching a boys penis on the school bus and him touching me. (same age)
I feel ashamed of exploring at such a young age and wonder if it stemmed from something I’ve blocked out. I have a lot of confusion around a lot of the events if I started it or they did.
Now that I’m an adult, I feel very sexual with people I shouldn’t. (Cheating or just people that seem risky)
I have a counsellor, I’ve shared that I felt like I’ve experienced child on child sexual abuse due to my cousin. The neighbour memory recently just came back to me.
Naima
Hii, thank you for your article I was afraid to search such thing on internet I am 48, I was sexually abused by an older cousin I think I was 5 years old and he was 16 or 18 he put his finger and rubbed inside my vagina ( it still hurts) several days on a summer vacation, he did that even him knows no that I will be a ´ very serious trouble if I lost my virginity before marriage, he didn’t forced me he manipulated me made me sat me on his lap, gave me candy and made me promise will tell no body I saw that like an act of love and now is a living nightmare on a daily basis with severe PTSD, it got worse when I gave birth to a baby girl, I am retraumatised every time I clean her private part or every morning when I detangle her hair and she moan in pain the same way when he was hurting me, that’s not even the worst part because that memory takes to another horrible one where I manipulated 2 of my little brothers I was 11 or 12 they were 7 and 6 I made them lay down and I was on the top of them and I will rub by private part against theirs they got hard and I made sure no penetration at that time I was not thinking that I am hurting them but I know it’s bad because I told them do not tell anyone, these 3 memories are making my life a living hell, will never ever forgive myself and I can’t feel sorry for what happened to me because I did it to my brothers and I don’t want to forgive myself because that means I have to forgive my cousin. I suffer from major depression and anxiety and PTSD , I talked about my assault by the cousin to 2 therapists but none of them made any comment or comforted me or reassured me when I express how guilty and ashamed about going and sting on his lap, by accepting the candy and not telling anyone, by not making it stop, I never shared what I did to my brothers to anyone, both my brothers suffered from depression and anxiety as adults, I have a good relationship with them I always ask them forgiveness for what I did and that I never meant to hurt them and that I was mimicking what I saw on TV, yet I never said exactly what I mean by « what I did » I don’t know if they remember or not or if they understood what I meant or they think about something different like yelling at the or spank them when they did something wrong because I was the person ne parenting my siblings, so I am afraid to name what I meant and made them remember the trauma, because they keep telling me why you are hard on yourself your a child and yet you did your big sister job( which breaks my heart more) and they don’t even remember much, but I remember what happened to me when I was 5 how can’´t they remember what happened to them at 6 and 7. This tournure I will carry it to my grave I think they suffered from depression and anxiety because of me, I ruined them. I am sorry I am so sorry
When it was covid and I was 9 years old and my step sister was 9 years old we were travelling so we had to sleep in the same bed. And at 1 am I got a boner and said look under the blanket and then she started grinding against my boner and then she wanted to see how boys pee so we went to the restroom and it ended there. In the morning i had extreme guilt. then it happened again and this time it was dry hump and oral sex for 5 seconds. After that she said we cant tell anyone and I said ok. After this went she asked me want to do the thing i said no because i realized its wrong and did not want guilt. Please help I feel guilt to this day i think this wouldn’t have happen if my discord friends did not expose me to porn and can I call myself a virgin???
Recently, I have been questioning whether i experienced COCSA. I had asked one of my friends, who is also a victim of it and she told me i was, but im still unsure.
So basically, in grade six, three boys (2 were 13, one was 12) had touched me inappropriately (not at the same time) on numerous occasions. They would rub and touch my inner thighs and chest and i would tell them to stop but they never would. Sometimes, they would hurt me by hitting or scratching me if i resisted and asked them to stop. It would make me very uncomfortable and scared but i dont know if it is classified as COCSA because they never actually touched my private areas, just my boobs and inner thighs. This went on for basically the entire year and when i spoke up about it to our principle, he did nothing.
Hi. When I was around 8-9 and my younger sibling was 2-3 I used to give them kisses on the lips to show love as it is common in my family. Just like an innocent peck. Recently I have learned what CoCSA is, and it has made me worry that my sibling may have been uncomfortable and did not want me to do this. The last thing I would ever want is to make someone uncomfortable. I guess I was worried that it would fit under the category of CoCSA? I’m not sure. I have OCD also and typically I worry a lot that maybe I did something bad as a child or in my past and I just have no memory of it, even though I don’t think I would ever do that. I am in therapy but I don’t really know how to bring this subject up.
I was abused by my older half-sister at the age of 3. She was 11. Fortunately, it wasn’t anything violent or forceful. At the time, I was not aware of the nature what was happening. I do not have clear memories of how it was initiated but I remember the act itself so vividly. I have held onto this guilt and shame for the past 16 years. I have struggled with depression since I was very young. I acted out sexually at the time of the abuse, being inappropriate with the family pet and when I was 5 I started viewing pornography. I developed severe borderline personality disorder due to the abuse. The abuse affected me greatly. Unfortunately, when I finally spoke out about it to my parents, I was told that I was overreacting and that it was normal child play. But it was not. I was so innocent and young. I did not need to be introduced to that. It ruined my childhood and the beginning of my adulthood. I was able to begin therapy and am working through this. Thank you for bringing awareness to this. This is much too common and not talked about nearly enough. To anyone who has experienced this: it does get better! I promise! There is nothing wrong with you and you did not deserve it. You are loved. You are worthy. You are wonderful.
If I need therapy for this, how would I go about finding the right therapist/psychologist? I told my situation to a uni counsellor recently (first time I talked about this) and it made me really confront my feelings. I am not sure she was the right person to help me make sense of this. Should I look specifically for someone who is experienced in this topic, how would I know they are experienced? If I go to the “find therapist” on this website, what should I put in the filters to find the right therapist? I don’t want to bounce from therapist to therapist and tell more people my story.
When I was in first grade, another first grader asked me to be his girlfriend. (I am nonbinary, but assigned female at birth, so at the time I presented as and thought I was female.) We sat next to each other in the back of the classroom, and later, during a test, we put our little carboard dividers (like three walls around each of our desks) together. He took his penis out and told me to suck it. I did, without question. I didn’t know what I was doing.
After, I was afraid of him, and according to my parents, I had anxiety. It took me months to tell them. They told the school, and they did nothing. The boy moved away. I think about him sometimes. I hope he’s okay.
I used to think this didn’t affect me much at all, but lately I’ve been thinking about it and it really did. I definetly made my anxiety worse, for one. But I just.. idk. I didn’t protest at all. He didn’t force me to do anything. I remember feeling rebellious as I did it.
Idk if this counts as COCSA but I’ve just been thinking about that.
I don’t know how to view what happened to me. I was ten. They were 15. Is that classed as COCSA or not ? I had no idea of anything sex related until what happened. Was he abused or was he using his age against me. Did he know it was wrong ? Surely being 15 he would’ve known that was very very wrong. I don’t know. I kinda want to know why? But maybe I never will.
I was 6 when my friend i was kinda close with asked me if i wanted to play sex with her and note that before this happened i had no idea what sex or anything else was. she was 7 or 8 and more developed. the „playing sex“ was her us taking our clothes off and kissing and thinking about it now makes me feel really uncomfortable. i remember not wanting to but then eventually got used to it and thats when the masturbation and watching porn started and ever since ive always watched porn etc i dont really know how to explain it im 16 now and the cocsa along with other stuff ive been through with my parents etc have left me with many problems that i always think about. all the symptoms: anxiety and depression constant illness deep feelings of shame and guilt emotional dysregulation foggy thinking identity issues low self-esteem promiscuity difficult relationships trust issues restlessness suicidal thinking complex PTSD. are exactly what i have. i also overthink everything and feel like no one takes me seriously i dont even know what im thinking doing or feeling because everyone keeps telling me its just because im a teen etc but i dont think it is? im slowly starting to think that many things are normal. i masturbate pretty often and my sexual preferences are huge and „weird“ im always having the urge and cant stop it. i dont want to go into details but its like an addiction and a really bad one. i dont think i remember everything theres many stuff i think about randomly that i dont remember happening its so frustrating. i dont know how to explain anything and i dont know what to do anymore is this normal? im sorry for the weird way of saying all of this and stuff i really dont know how to explain this in a sort of formal way and i dont know how to explain all these feelings and thoughts im sorry.